sholio: sun on winter trees (Avengers-Natasha)
Sholio ([personal profile] sholio) wrote2015-05-03 05:09 pm

And in case you thought I was done talking about Age of Ultron ...

NOPE!

Actually, I mostly wanted to link to this piece of meta by [personal profile] such_heights that I stumbled across earlier today, presenting (I think) an excellent defense of Natasha/Bruce as a pairing in the movie, and what it means for Natasha specifically.

Of course I just spent oodles of time yesterday typing up everything I dislike about it, and I stand by that. But I also feel that, well first of all, [personal profile] such_heights has some really excellent character meta about Natasha in those scenes (and makes a point I hadn't considered, which is that at least some of what I saw as wtf random character changes between the movies can be considered a result of what she went through in Cap2, and her subsequent desire to reinvent herself).

... I mean, we are all willing to cut huge amounts of slack for - to pick an example - Steve's extremely different personality in Avengers compared to his much more relaxed and playful persona in his own movies; we invent detailed explanations involving depression and grief, and while I think the fanwanky explanations totally work, I doubt if the writers actually put that much thought into it. And even though I STILL hate the infertility/kids discussion in AoU, and the way infertility is prioritized in the Red Room flashbacks, I also think it's worth kind of stopping for a minute to think about how the fandom overall is dealing with that, compared to, say, fandom's ongoing willingness to handwave away three movies' worth of Tony clearly and explicitly putting Pepper at the center of his universe in order to remove her as a romantic rival and put him together with Steve.

We tend to be harder, generally, on female characters, and cut them less slack, and sideline them in fanfic on the slimmest of pretexts. General prevailing sentiment in fandom is to blame it on fannish sexism, and while I think that's GOT to be part of it (I've caught myself doing it too, reacting more negatively to the same behavior from female characters that I'd tolerate in a male character), I don't actually think it's all of it -- because female characters are disproportionately likely to be victims of sloppy writing and a lack of what I guess I'd call narrative empathy in canon: we get the guys' POV, but we don't get the female characters' POV as often, even when they're onscreen as much. And I think we're (mostly on a subconscious level) reacting to that, also.

(I REALLY need to type up this thing that's been circulating around the back of my brain ever since I watched Agent Carter and Engrenages, because both of those shows invite us into the female characters' POV in a way that shows almost never do -- it's sort of like, I don't notice the exclusion of women's POVs in TV and movies as a general rule, but I tend to notice the opposite; it's so ubiquitous that this sidelining of female viewpoints, the way the narration tends to be very subtly slanted towards the male characters in a way I'm pretty sure the writers don't even know they're doing, is something I only notice when a show happens not to do that.)

Anyway, as much as I wasn't happy with Natasha's storyline in AoU, I really think it's sad that the only thing fandom seems to be talking about post-movie regarding Natasha is how she was badly written or she was a damsel in distress or she was reduced to nothing but a "girlfriend" in the movie, because -- where have we all seen this before? OH RIGHT, EVERYWHERE, FOR EVERY FEMALE CHARACTER EVER, INCLUDING NATASHA IN THE FIRST AVENGERS MOVIE! And even though I do think a lot of her storyline was badly written and the characterization was all over the map, I'm glad to have stumbled across some meta that focuses on the stuff she did that was cool, and fun, and good for her as a character. And I hope there will be more of it!

...

On a side note, now that the movie has had time to settle in my brain somewhat, I am amazed that the character relationship I came out with the most ~feelings~ about is, apparently, Clint's with the Maximoff twins. I DIDN'T EVEN LIKE HAWKEYE! (I didn't hate him, but I didn't really have feelings about him as a character one way or another.) And now I really love the snarky little bastard and have massive amounts of feelings about those final scenes with Clint and Wanda, and Clint and Pietro, in particular. (The scene where he lays down beside Pietro's body ... I WILL NEVER STOP HAVING FEELINGS ABOUT THAT.)
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[personal profile] recessional 2015-05-04 01:52 am (UTC)(link)
I'd actually love to be bitching about the slaughtering of Tony's character, but then I get a load of crud about how he's actually always been like that on and on and on. *grump*
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[personal profile] minim_calibre 2015-05-04 04:25 am (UTC)(link)
I mostly just loathe how it was executed, because it's not something I object to, and is something that could have been done so, so well, and yet! The writing choices just made me wince. I can't even get to Watsonian with it yet. I'll have to bookmark that to read later when I'm less cranky, as Natasha is my favorite Avenger.

I thought the first Avengers movie did well by her (and let's face it: I rank Iron Man 2 far higher than I should because Natasha), so I had higher expectations for how Whedon would handle my favorite Avenger in AoU than I did for how he'd handle my second favorite Avenger. (I had low expectations re: how he'd handle Steve. They were neither exceeded nor did he fail to meet them.)

And it's also frustrating because I've had a lot of thoughts since CA:TWS about how Natasha would deal with figuring out who she is post-SHIELD, and I think that my take and Whedon's weren't that far apart in terms of core concepts, but there was all this telling and so little showing when it came to the Bruce storyline.
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[personal profile] monanotlisa 2015-05-04 07:28 am (UTC)(link)
I also think it's worth kind of stopping for a minute to think about how the fandom overall is dealing with that, compared to, say, fandom's ongoing willingness to handwave away three movies' worth of Tony clearly and explicitly putting Pepper at the center of his universe in order to remove her as a romantic rival and put him together with Steve.

Yeah.

One thing worth noting, though: Fandom's capability to see inequality and maltreatment of female characters on a meta level is not connected to fandom's willingness to address, let alone redress it in fiction. In my case, although I did speak out against certain slashfans' hatred of Elizabeth Weir, I wasn't willing to write her as the protagonist of my SGA fiction, let alone to pair her with John (sidenote, I really have a thing for Masochistic Dogged Loyal Will-Gladly-Die-For-His-People Dudes, see John Sheppard, see Matt Murdoch, see Fraction!Clint, see Lincoln Lee, both versions).

Back to the MCU side, I dislike the pairing to the point where I had to make a custom filter for Marvel searches on the AO3 so they would exclude Steve/Tony (among others). And yet I bet you dollars to donuts that some of of the better Steve/Tony writers could in fact speak coherently to feminism and media distortions, and that they like Pepper Potts just fine.

...though I take your point; those are not the *handwave* authors, probably.

General prevailing sentiment in fandom is to blame it on fannish sexism, and while I think that's GOT to be part of it (I've caught myself doing it too, reacting more negatively to the same behavior from female characters that I'd tolerate in a male character), I don't actually think it's all of it -- because female characters are disproportionately likely to be victims of sloppy writing and a lack of what I guess I'd call narrative empathy in canon: we get the guys' POV, but we don't get the female characters' POV as often, even when they're onscreen as much. And I think we're (mostly on a subconscious level) reacting to that, also.

The POV argument is such a good and true one; I have ranted about the complexity of this issue many times. Totally borrowing the term "narrative empathy" too.

I think where I'm stuck is how to resolve this, because I feel that understanding is the first step, overcoming the next, but it doesn't matter that you and I and our friends are taking a hundred steps if culture itself isn't changed, changing for the better, so the swamp of misogyny (and racism, classism, homophobia, and so on) doesn't keep swallowing all of us and letting the ones with access to money, power, and the entertainment media complex constantly regurgitate its toxic morass.
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[personal profile] schneefink 2015-05-04 09:52 am (UTC)(link)
Actually I like the fannish discussion about Natasha much more than what I remember about fannish discussions about Elizabeth Weir or Teyla. The discussion about Natasha mostly revolves about what an awesome character she is and how the writers did wrong by her, while the discussions about Elizabeth and Teyla were also about if they were interesting characters at all. It feels like progress.

And I agree that fandom is harder on female characters, but I think a big reason is that there are so few of them. Natasha is THE female character in the Avengers (now there will be Wanda, but I don't think she fully counts yet because she's so new) so her portrayal is very important and people watch her very closely. Whereas if there were more female characters I think fandom would be much more forgiving if one of them had inconsistent characterization.

Personally I dislike Tony's characterization, thought Bruce's was severely lacking, was puzzled by Steve - the movie generally did a shit job with characterization continuity imo. I'm not more unhappy with Natasha's characterization as such than I am with the others'. But with Natasha it stands out more. Because she's the only woman, and so in some ways I care more about Natasha.

I don't like that fandom treats male and female characters differently, but otoh I don't think it's wrong to demand better treatment for the few female characters we do get. Sometimes it feels like writers want cookies for including female characters, but they don't get that for free. It sucks a lot when this leads to fandom treating female characters badly, but I haven't really seen that so far in Natasha's case.

("Just" that she's been less written about in fic than e.g. Clint, but I think that also has other reasons, but that's a whole other topic.)